kanibolotsky: (face)
[personal profile] kanibolotsky
Действительно, какую схему http://kanibolotsky.livejournal.com/33325.html ни выбери, окажешься в еретиках с точки зрения традиционного христианства. Сторонники третьей, четвертой и шестой схем - троебожники, верят в трех богов. Объяснение в моем ответе [livejournal.com profile] vazlav_s http://kanibolotsky.livejournal.com/33246.html?thread=560350#t560350 : из трех самосознаний следует три субъекта, если мы утверждаем, что все эти самосознания истинные, а не ложные. А знания Бога, в том числе само-сознание, не может быть ложным по определению. Собственно, и сами сторонники трех божественных самосознаний признают, что они говорят о трех божественных субъектах, трех ипостасях. А три божественных субъекта - это три бога. Кстати,  [livejournal.com profile] vazlav_s и сам прекрасно может показать, что схемы с тремя "Я" в Боге ведут к троебожию. (Аналогично арианские идеи о двух божестенных Я, Отца и Логоса, ведут к двоебожию). Сторонники первой и третьей схем отрицают, что Христос является полностью человеком: у Христа нет человеческого Я по этим схемам, а без человеческого Я не может быть полностью человек. Сторонники второй и четвертой схем, напротив, отрицают божественность Христа. Сторонники пятой и шестой схем признают двух субъектов в Христе, т.е. двух Христов.
Как же выкручиваются христианские конфессии из этих противоречий? Забалтыванием, говорением многих слов, которые не несут смысла. И жонглированием разными схемами, постоянными переходами от одной схемы к другой. Например, указали стороннику третьей схемы, что он троебожник, так тот сразу сослался на какого-то святого отца, говорящего, что надо понимать, что Бог таки один, т.е. резко перешел к схеме 1. Указали ему, что у него Христос не поностью человек, и он сослался на другого отца, говорящего, что Христос во всем, включая волю, ум и т.п., полностью Бог и полностью человек, т.е. делается переход к схеме 5 или 6. И т.д.
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Date: 2013-04-08 01:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] banderrass.livejournal.com
Я в этих схемах не силен, но интересно узнать, я к какой схеме отношусь?
А вообще то о чем вы говорите суть христианства, как известно есть катафатическое богословие и апофатическое богословие, при этом апофатическое ставится выше. Бога познать невозможно, об этом говорят почти все религии.
Но мы имеем Троицу, Троица это один организм, с тремя частями одного тела, рука может брать чашку, голова смотреть телевизор, а нога в это время делать упражнение, все остальное апофатия.

Date: 2013-04-08 06:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
Если в каком-либо утверждении есть внутренние противоречия, то это утверждение не имеет смысла, а является пустым набором звуков. Для медитации и прихода в экстаз годится (коан), для объяснения содержания веры - нет
Пример с организмом человека - да, уместен. Вот только исходя из этого примера у Троице одно Я, а не три. Ведь у человеческого организма одно Я, руки и ноги - не личности, своего Я не имеют.

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Date: 2013-04-08 07:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
Спасибо, я знаю Апостольский Символ веры. Буквально вчера был в лютеранской церкви на службе и читал его :) Из его текста не понятно, в каком смысле Христос называется "Единородным Сыном Бога, Отца Всемогущего". Т.е. текст можно интерпретировать по-разному.
Приведенную цитату из Иринея Лионского тоже можно трактовать по-разному, как по схеме 1, так и 3

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Эпиклеза

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Re: Эпиклеза

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Date: 2013-04-08 04:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bessonov-folk.livejournal.com
А может на манер Севира синтезировать вторую и пятую схемы? Вроде как Я Христа - богочеловеческое? Тогда у нас не будет недостатков этих схем (отрицания божественности или учения о двух Христах).

Date: 2013-04-08 07:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
Тогда тоже будет внутреннее противоречие в системе. Это обсуждалось здесь http://grigor-yan.livejournal.com/190930.html?thread=1484754#t1484754

Date: 2013-04-08 04:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bessonov-folk.livejournal.com
Другой вопрос, что этот вариант все-таки будет разновидностью второй схемы.

Date: 2013-04-08 07:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
Да, учение Севира - это разновидность второй схемы. У второй схемы проблема в том, что внутренне не противоречива только та ее разновидность, которая утверждает, что Я Христа человеческое (пусть просвященное Богом, но все равно человеческое). Все остальные варианты схемы 2 дают внутренние противоречия

Date: 2013-04-08 08:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] livejournal.livejournal.com
Пользователь [livejournal.com profile] banderrass сослался на вашу запись в записи « (http://banderrass.livejournal.com/173508.html)» в контексте: [...] что празднуют. Кому интересно поучаствовать на данную тему, у уважаемого Дмитирия сюда [...]

Date: 2013-04-08 09:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alih.livejournal.com
Вы так смело разводите философию применительно к Троице, прям как греки. Все эти рассуждения типа "самосознание - это сознание себя каким-то субъектом" к трансцендентному Отцу совсем неприменимы.

Date: 2013-04-08 10:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
"Греки", т.е. греческие богословы эпорхи патристики, все богословие как раз и запутали. Я же, наоборот, пытаюсь распутать.
О применимости к Богу понятия самосознания я писал здесь http://kanibolotsky.livejournal.com/33325.html?thread=562989#t562989

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From: [identity profile] livejournal.livejournal.com
Пользователь [livejournal.com profile] grigor_yan сослался на вашу запись в записи «Подведу итог и я по поводу итогов опроса по теме тринитарно-христологических схем (http://grigor-yan.livejournal.com/191487.html)» в контексте: [...] е. 0 (0.0%) Оригинал взят у в Подведение итогов двух прошлых постов. Все вы (мы) еретики! [...]

Date: 2013-04-13 03:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gleb krchvsky (from livejournal.com)
По поводу 5 схема.Два самосознания во Христе не есть 2 Христа.Так что как раз 5 схема единственно не еретическая.

Date: 2013-04-13 05:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
Вот здесь http://kanibolotsky.livejournal.com/33246.html?thread=590046#t590046 я на пальцах объясняю, что два самосознания тождественны двум субъектам

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Date: 2013-04-13 05:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
http://kanibolotsky.livejournal.com/33606.html?thread=592710#t592710

Date: 2013-04-13 05:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gleb krchvsky (from livejournal.com)
Тем более что во Христе оба сознания были не гномическими а природными, тобиш программными и поэтому между ними не возникало системных противоречий.

Date: 2013-04-13 05:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

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Date: 2013-04-13 05:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gleb krchvsky (from livejournal.com)
Коли нема чого відповісти по суті, лишаються лише смайлики.)

Date: 2013-04-13 05:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
Перед тим, як писати нові коментарі, треба прочитати попередні адресовані Вам відповіді та те, що у посиланнях у цих відповідях. Тоді менше шансів буде написати дурницю
Edited Date: 2013-04-13 06:08 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-04-13 05:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gleb krchvsky (from livejournal.com)
Есть субъект действия, и есть то что им движет то есть, его сознание, и это все.А касательно того осознает оно себя как я или нет то это его личные проблемы и они ни кого не касаются.
Edited Date: 2013-04-13 06:01 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-04-13 06:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
Т.е. Вы признаете, что самосозание не вписывается в Вашу богословскую схему, и если богословие рассмотреть в терминах самосознания, вся Ваша (и греко-православная вообще) схема рушится. Это и требовалось доказать, см. текст моего поста

Date: 2013-04-13 06:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gleb krchvsky (from livejournal.com)
А чим, по твому самосвідомість відрізняється від свідомостті? Як на мене, то сутьтево ні чим,
Edited Date: 2013-04-13 06:13 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-04-13 06:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
http://kanibolotsky.livejournal.com/33246.html?thread=558302#t558302
И еще раз настоятельно Вам рекомендую прочитать всю ветку обсуждения здесь http://kanibolotsky.livejournal.com/33246.html?thread=554974#t554974 , особенно мои ответы в этой ветке
Edited Date: 2013-04-13 06:19 pm (UTC)

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из переписки

Date: 2013-04-13 11:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] artemorte.livejournal.com
Вопросы это интересные, хотя способы их обсуждения детские. В Боге нет "я". Если хорошо подумать, нет его и в человеке :)) Ибо "я" в обычном лексиконе обозначает ту точку, к которой возводятся все восприятия (опыт), но которая этим опытом не дается... к которой возводятся всем мысли и воленья, но которая сама не мыслится и не волит... Допустить такую реальность в Боге = сделать его животным. И в человеке дело обстоит так, поскольку он оскотинел. Даже праведник уже не вполне "я", в святых этого "я" еще меньше, во Христе скотского "я" не было и вовсе, ибо это "я" - неправильная точка сборки, возникшая после грехопадения. В некотором смысле все мы - метафизические выкидыши, а Он был доношен правильно. Отсюда разница в "опытах рожденья" и необходимость "родиться еще раз" и "новое "я" " которое начинает жить в некоторых товв. после Крещения: отсюда и само крещение изначально погружательное и в сознательном возрасте...

Re: из переписки

Date: 2013-04-14 09:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kanibolotsky.livejournal.com
Про Я в человеке
http://kanibolotsky.livejournal.com/33246.html?thread=558302#t558302 и ниже по ветке.
Про Я в Боге http://kanibolotsky.livejournal.com/33325.html?thread=562989#t562989

каменты

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